viernes, 20 de marzo de 2009

Future Changes on SL -Expensive Ram ! -

Hi I decided to take a break from my schedule to write about something that seems to be on the Idea Panel, at Linden Labs(tm), and most likely will be implemented in soon to come versions of the Second Life Server.

A few days ago at 4AM SLT, babbage Linden called up on an office hour meeting ( march 18 to be exact ), to inform us about new things that are cooking on SL.

Basically 3 things where discussed, some of you might know about them some of you might now, however I will talk about this issues here:

-The New Scheduler

[2009/03/18 4:03] Babbage Linden: so, the biggest thing that happened this week is that the new mono scheduler past internal QA.

ok for the non tech people out there the scheduler is the "soul" of SL scripts, it seems that based on the work of some hard working beta testers ( like moon metty ) they found out a serious flaw on the scheduler, that from time to time allowed mono scripts to go over it's 64K ram allocation limit, therefore using more ram, as well as bigger time slices, so that is indeed a thing that could potentially create a lot of issues, from the server side where the scripts are run.

in Babbage Linden's words:

[2009/03/18 4:04] Roberto Salubrius: now new limitations that we should be aware of ?
[2009/03/18 4:04] Babbage Linden: previously it was possible to exploit the scheduler to get long time slices
[2009/03/18 4:05] Babbage Linden: that should now be fixed
[2009/03/18 4:05] Babbage Linden: also, it was possible to temporarily use more than 64K with mono scripts within a time slice

Babbage Linden: scripts that are most often affected are those which use list operations like this
[2009/03/18 4:07] Babbage Linden: l = llListSortList(l);

on a personal note:
This, has been "exploited" by some scripters, deliberately, and maybe others are using more than 64K without being aware that they are using it, or more time, since we really don't have the appropriate tools to measure this, and we thought it was controlled correctly on the Server Side, well thankfully this new scheduler will be for some time on the Beta Grid, so we can go out and test some scripts, that we could think might be using more than they where supposed to, and try to fix them, however, it's known that some content will break, but well, there's not much we can do about that right now, the new Scheduler is expected to come with the 1.26 Server.

-limit script memory based on parcel ownership

It seems that in the near future, we are going to have to worry not only about the prims we have on a parcel, but also the ram that we are using on each parcel:

[2009/03/18 4:24] Babbage Linden: there is a separate project we're working on which we limit script memory based on parcel ownership
[2009/03/18 4:25] Babbage Linden: which will work like prim limits
Babbage Linden: when scripts are running in world, they will request memory from the parcel's script memory pool

So then as the conversation unfolds it seems that we are going to have to sell items, like this " Techno Kitty Development - Future Object - Prims: 3 Ram: 16K -

As Babbage said after this, when you do not have enough ram to run a script, it will just not rez, just like it happens now when you don't have enough prims on a parcel, maybe we'll get a "Parcel Ram Full Unable to rez item"

on a personal note, as a system administrator of years, I understand why this is going to be implemented, you need boundaries and limits, however as a user, I see this as something potentially problematic, now it will not only be prims, but also ram.

And as a "SL scripter" this really worries me, since as we all know a program might grow over time, for instance a visitor counter, right now we have a predefined allocation of ram ( or we thought we did, look the scheduler part ), and we knew that we could use up to 64K of ram, I have no idea how much ram we will get for each SQM, however it would be interesting to see, how things will unfold, when you sell a small script telling people it uses 64K of ram, and well to start it might just use 1K, or 2K, I really have a lot of questions about this, but well, I guess time will tell.

[2009/03/18 4:29] Babbage Linden: you will need to sell it as a 6 prim, 16KB object
[2009/03/18 4:29] Babbage Linden: people are widely aware of prim limits
[2009/03/18 4:30] Babbage Linden: "memory limits are like prim limits: you get them with your land"


Also it seems that in the not so far future we will be able to allocate more ram per script, so we won't need to "cut scripts" and use linked messages as we do now, that might be nice, however I think that if a script requires a lot of ram, well, it won't be a big seller, as I said before I have more questions about this, and the implications of this, than answers:

[2009/03/18 4:46] Babbage Linden: you might have a 1 prim object that needs 1MB
[2009/03/18 4:46] Babbage Linden: or a 100 prim object that needs 16KB

[2009/03/18 4:50] Babbage Linden: there will be edge cases were people are running 2000 scripts on a 512m parcel of land
[2009/03/18 4:51] Babbage Linden: those will stop working

-avatars allowance for attachments

[2009/03/18 4:24] Babbage Linden: and give avatars and allowance for attachments
[2009/03/18 4:25] Babbage Linden: which will work like prim limits
[2009/03/18 4:25] Roberto Salubrius: so limit ram and or script time per avatar
[2009/03/18 4:26] Babbage Linden: when scripts are attachments, they will request memory from the avatar's script pool

This is basically the same thing as limit script memory based on parcel ownership, but it will be per avatar, basically you'll have an amount of ram for each Avatar, for scripted attachments, if you have enough ram you'll be able to attach the items, if not, well it won't attach.

[2009/03/18 4:45] Babbage Linden: parcels and avatars will have a memory pool
[2009/03/18 4:45] Babbage Linden: in order to rez a script you need to have enough memory available in the pool to fulfil the requirement
[2009/03/18 4:46] Babbage Linden: just like a prim limit

[2009/03/18 4:53] Babbage Linden: but again, we will pick numbers for avatar pools that will mean that most people can continue to use the scripted attachments they currently use
[2009/03/18 4:53] Babbage Linden: only extreme edge cases should be affected

On a personal note, I really hope they give each avatar a very LARGE pool of ram, because it will be so bad to get costumers screaming at you, telling you that product X or Y is nor working, and then you are gonna have to tell them something like, look if you go bald, take off your shoes, and all your jewelery, you'll be able to use your new item... that really concerns me.

Well all of that being said, the "why" this is being implemented is basically to really limit things, and avoid lag, and griefing:

Babbage Linden: and actually, running tons of scripts on a tiny parcel is griefing all the other parcel owners anyway
[2009/03/18 4:52] Roberto Salubrius: yes of course
[2009/03/18 4:52] Babbage Linden: i agree that this will require lots of communication to get right

[2009/03/18 4:53] Babbage Linden: but again, we will pick numbers for avatar pools that will mean that most people can continue to use the scripted attachments they currently use
[2009/03/18 4:53] Babbage Linden: only extreme edge cases should be affected

I have no idea what a extreme case is right now, but I guess I'll know soon enough, well it seems that right now the lindens are conducting a grid wide assessment, on how much ram each person is using, and how much ram each parcel is using to have real numbers to work with, I hope this numbers are REAL high, so we don't see content broken, or we don't see as much content broken as we could see when this is fully implemented.

However I have to say that RIGHT now, when they are getting the metrics of all this, Bots do affect us more than imagined, since most of them are just "dummies" with no attachments, they basically could end up lowering the pool for the rest of us real users, I hope the lindens take this into consideration before they get the metrics up and running, and I really call massive bot owners, to keep them out of the grid while the metrics are set, so LL(tm) get a better understanding of what is required with real significant numbers.

As I Said before this really raises a lot of questions, from my side, and makes me wonder, if on the long run this will be for the better or for the worst, I guess we will see, this is is a change that will touch the core of SL as we know it right now ( no I am not screaming wolf, or writing about another end of SL ).

Now I do have my own personal theories about why this might be being implemented, but I will keep this to myself, and let you all come to your conclusions, basically I wrote a few comments, and decide to share this information with the community !

Thank you for reading !


12 comentarios:

madisen dijo...

Tentatively, that stuff doesn't sound like a bad idea. However.. we know how things work on SL. Thinking about my own land, it's hard to find things anymore that ISN'T scripted. Not being a scripter, I really don't know how that stuff all works with ram usage, and the like. While it sounds like a good idea in theory, I just hope that they wouldn't set this limit low enough that it affected the average person, or business adversely. wow..i sound like such a dullard. lol great post

ZE design Zigadena Gabardini-Emarald Harvey dijo...

Good idea? My god its just another nail in the coffin for LL.
Do they think users will accept this new 1984 ??
I wont"!

Summer Wardhani dijo...

I had problems understanding the "pool" concept...

chuby dijo...

For Summer:

the pool concept is easy, you have a "Pool of avaliable items" ( ram, cycles, prims etc ), when you use all that you have in the pool, then either you have to free things so they go back in the pool, or you can't use anything else, because the pool is empty.

Rice dijo...

I just got word of this, this morning, I really should pay more attn. Another thing LL should really consider is the ability to POOL resources owned by the same avatar. Ie. Landlords who own 5 privat islands, side by side, should be allowed to pool their resources to get maximize use of the prim/and now ram, that they pay for.

The rest - Ive been here a long time and can certainly vouch that LL almost ALWAYS does things half-assed and this wont be as well thought out as they claim.

As for bots and bot users - if they place the metrics, they should dump any numbers showing ARC etc below a minimum threshold - very obviously, only bots woudl render say an ARC of 5.. etc.

Damn - its not the end Im sure, it never is, but it is going backwards. Back to the days of 1 square prim beds and 10 posesballs.

C'est le Vie.

Gigs dijo...

"because it will be so bad to get costumers screaming at you, telling you that product X or Y is nor working, "

No that will be good. Creators of scripted items need to have customers scream at them when they use extreme amounts of ram. It is the only way they will be motivated to fix their hogging items.

Nexii Malthus dijo...

Creators of badly scripted objects need customers to scream at them, kick their balls and tear down their house, but congratulate and praise the good creators as gods. But nevermind, its always the other way around in SL....

Wise dijo...

Guess this is what you do when your "online users" numbers go up but you don't know how to fix your code to handle it. So what you do is... you squash resources people can use to make it "look" more stable.

So how will this work for people that own estates (like us) and offer free server hosting on one sim which also holds the main store? This is stupid. If you own the sim and you decide to have a nice landscape but a large store on one parcel... you be having them script limits on that parcel even you have most of the rest of the sim empty??

Means I wont be able to use the actual sims resources (or prims) on 1 parcel if I want? At the moment I can go above a parcels prim count for exampe if I make the land group owned and have another parcel on the same group... will that also apply for script restrictions - 2 group owned parcels sharing sccript limitations and prims??

Gypsy dijo...

Being one of those users who prefer less flash, I am not too worried about this. Actually, I am thinking it would improve the lag on my land as my neighbor is probably using 10X's his allotment would be.
I would appreciate the chance to tone down the excessive users.

deusxs dijo...

I hope only one thing... that i do not have to quit SL becase of the need of a new extrapowerful Video Card!
Using Ludwig Mies Van Der Rhoe's concept "Less Is More" and Albert Einstein's concept as well... "Teach the simple thing in an even simpler way".

In poor words, dear Lindenlab please... dont turn his awesome platform into a latest generation game, go against the tide Video Cards makers force the world of gaming to follow and make us keep having greater experiences with less resources!

Hoping to manage staying inworld...

AlexanderD Schumann

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